Talking Tech, VC, eSports, Uranium, Bitcoin & more with Dr. Chris Dark

Now we’re cooking! We’re turning up the heat and bringing an abundance of flavor in this episode with a special guest who discusses venture capital, working capital, adds in a dash of e-sports and computer games, and sprinkles in being a rocket scientist. Dr. Chris Dark does it all, retiring at the age of 39, he continues to invest his family office across all asset classes, focusing on crypto, long-term out of consensus strategic plays, and allocating to external managers with specialist strategies. This leaves us with just one question, what can’t Dr. Dark do!?

In this full force of a discussion, we’re talking what it’s like to be a co-founder and executive at five companies (eSports, video games, trade finance, blockchain, venture capital), investment philosophies, Bitcoin, market structure & environmental impacts, and what it was like meeting a less famous Elon Musk and introducing the idea of space elevators. Plus, we play a little game of “What Would You Invest In?”

Highlights from this week’s episode include:

  • Why most venture firms don’t make it and how they’re missing one unique component- investing in things they like
  • Why Bitcoin is such an important asset when volatility often increases as the price goes up
  • How to disrupt banks, then do it again
  • Understanding we’re in an interesting time with inflation,  even though it’s undeniable that technology is a deflationary force
  • Lessons from a serial entrepreneur, and more!
  • Where Chris would invest $1k, $100k, and $1mm


Find the full episode links for The Derivative below:



Additional Resources:

  • Check out Dr. Dark After Dark here.
  • Follow Chris on Twitter here.


Check out the complete Transcript from this weeks podcast below:

Talking Tech, VC, eSports, Uranium, Bitcoin & more with Dr. Chris Dark

Jeff Malec  00:07

Okay, you made it to Thursday. Congrats. Today’s episode is brought to you by our Sam’s China division. We’ll talk a bit about China in this episode with Chris having visited many times impressed by their long term vision. In our seems China group is impressed with the Chinese futures markets, which have a bit more directional volatility and the commodity markets over here, making them prime markets on which to operate systematic trading models, and are the RCM China group which has boots on the ground working with Chinese allocators interested in accessing these models having raised more than 100 million USD for operation using US trade signals on those Chinese markets. For more info, go to www dot RCM alternatives our CM Elsewhere Be sure to listen next week we’ll be talking with Stinson dean at lumber trading on Twitter, talking about lumber prices back over $1,000 And if that’s inflation, or whether that is supply chain whether that is climate change a little bit of all the above. And on this episode with Dr. Chris dark. He of the Dr. Dark after dark podcast but better known to me as an investor who’s interested in protecting wealth with a solid anti fragile portfolio that includes a healthy dose of alternatives. This was a super fun chat with my imposter syndrome kicking into high gear as I tried to keep up with Chris’s thoughts on everything from nuclear power to term limits and politics to eSports pretending to be a Bitcoin maximalist Chris has a unique mind looking at the world in unique ways. So enjoy our chat, send it Welcome to the derivative by our Sam alternatives, where we dive into what makes alternative investments, go analyze the strategies of unique hedge fund managers and chat with interesting guests from across the investment world. Alright, welcome to the podcast. How are you, Chris?


Chris Dark  02:05

I’m good. It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me, Jeff.


Jeff Malec  02:08

Yeah, then a fan of yours is to listen to your stuff. And our mutual friend Jason bucks told me a lot about you. So glad to finally be talking to you. Absolutely. And so you have quite an incredible CV there founded a bunch of companies studied at Oxford, a bunch of different stuff. So give us some give us the quick cliff notes on your background and, and what you’re doing these days.


Chris Dark  02:35

Sure, as a Brit, everyone should know it’s impossible to give the 32nd I’m going to talk for five hours, but no to do it quickly. I originally, I basically I was a scientist. So I have a PhD in superconductors from Oxford. So really a physicist, material scientist, and then. But when I did that, I started one of the world’s first eSports sites, this is back in 2002. Before anyone had really heard of eSports, so I’ve kind of often in my career, I’ve done two things at once, which, I mean, isn’t kind of that normal, but it’s kind of been fun. And, and after that I, I finished I went I went to like a Bain and Company for a few years in London, the consulting firm, which taught me actually a lot about business, and also analysis and how to be more rigorous with data. I think that’s important. But I was never going to do that for too long. And then I helped start a one of the what is now one of the largest venture capital firms in Europe called atomic co with the founders of Skype, who are good friends of mine. And that was great fun, you know, investing across, this was back in kind of 2010 for a few years, in really web two, and that type of stuff. And, and then I joined while my friend had started a company in the US could ctfo, which is now the world’s largest working capital marketplace. And so I ran that across the world outside the US, I started it in that 16 different countries. And that’s been a real big success. And, you know, taught me a lot, you know, I move around the world for that, and had a lot of fun. But that was b2b, b2b payments, working capital completely different to you know, computer games, and that type of stuff. And, and also, at the same time, I started to get an interest in cryptocurrencies. So you may get into that at some point. And, I mean, ultimately, I had, you know, I’d started a couple other businesses that were complete failures. I did some blockchain stuff, which was a success until COVID came and yeah, kind of meant that I’m now basically retired and really just, you know, invest from, you know, what we call that kind of family office. So, that’s a kind of short history,


Jeff Malec  04:56

but, so, I’m gonna unpack some of that. So First of all what tell me about superconductors? I think I know enough to be dangerous. But what


Chris Dark  05:06

I mean, as every superconducting thesis has to start, it’s almost a law that they were discovered in 1911. By camlica, honors, I think, from memory, and he’s the guy that worked hard to liquefy helium. So what he’s doing is just a liquid helium 4.2 Kelvin. So basically four degrees above absolute zero minus 269 Celsius, I’ve no idea what that is in Fahrenheit, like 6000. That’d be minus four or 500, I guess. And so, but yeah, he was just putting stuff into this cold liquid. And then he measuring the resistance, and he suddenly found, I try remember, the first one, I think was led, and he just found the resistance, the electrical resistance suddenly went to zero. So it didn’t just trend down, it literally fell off a cliff, and he couldn’t measure it. It was so close to zero. It’s not strictly zero. If but if you had a superconducting ring and put a current in it, and kept it cool, it would flow for 1000s of years without you being able to detect any form of reduction in current. So it’s in practice zero. And then basically, they weren’t very useful for a long time. And then Reagan, Ronald Reagan gave a famous speech in the 80s, that will house superconductors and change the world because they just found things that work at much higher temperatures, as in liquid nitrogen, which is 77 Kelvin, which is still obviously very cold, but it’s a lot cheaper than someone told me once liquid helium cost the same as whiskey liquid nitrogen cost the same as milk. So it makes a big difference. And good whiskey. Yeah. And so there was meant to be all sorts of applications. And really, the one application that’s been the killer application for superconductors is MRI scanners. So MRI machines will not work if it wasn’t for superconductors, because you couldn’t produce the magnetic fields you need to image inside your body. So that is absolutely the number one use. It’s in every hospital pretty much in the Western world. And, you know, but in, there were just as always, a lot of things worked in the lab and very hard to scale up. So what I was looking into is how you can make kind of longer tapes, and you know, longer wires of these kind of high temperature superconductors. And a lot of progress has been made now. So now they can do it. But this was kind of 2025 years ago, I did this. So


Jeff Malec  07:29

is there. Is there this sentence like a crass question, but is there money in it? Like, if you just been a researcher and like a PhD at a university, probably not retired early.


Chris Dark  07:41

But what’s happening more, I mean, Oxford was very good at this, US is very good at this. And Cambridge is pretty good at it. And UK. And I mentioned those because they are the top universities in the world for research a lot of the time. And, you know, colleagues of mine was spitting out businesses. And so they were they remained an academic and would also have a kind of an entrepreneurial business. And then they could use the university’s equipment, which is great. But University took some equity in that. And every university is very different in how they approach that. And yeah, I mean, famously, was at Stanford had early shares of Google, I mean, yeah. Right. And so, but most academics are not cut out for entrepreneurship. I mean, you know, it’s a very different kind of ballgame. But someone said,


Jeff Malec  08:22

yeah, yeah, we say that in the hedge fund world all the time. We’re like, brilliant at creating the model terrible business person there to two separate skills. And then, well, I’ll leave that be so that sounds totally different than eSports. So how did that come about? Were you playing video games on the side? Yeah.


Chris Dark  08:41

Exactly. That I played a lot of realtime strategy games. So, you know, we’re talking late 90s, early noughties, things like Command and Conquer. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, which was a huge franchise there. And you know, a lot of Blizzard games. I mean, Starcraft being most famous World of Warcraft, Warcraft, three, I guess. And then a whole bunch of other realtime strategy games came out. I love them inside. I started a site where it was pre video. So my kind of thesis was very simple. People want to get better at the games they love. And online was a thing to play the game. But no one could share videos of them playing because back in 2000 2002, there was no YouTube. You couldn’t people were on dial up still. Yeah, but everyone was on broadband. There’s no way you could share videos. And so there was a way you could share a little tiny file called a replay file that was about 50 kilobytes. That’s normally so easy to share. And then people could play that through their game engine and watch other people play. And then we would learn audio on top of that. And if you put the two together, it’s like a video but it was only maybe a couple of megabytes in size, which was the audio taking up that space? versus you know, if it was an actual video like we’re filming now, you know, would have been maybe hundreds of megabytes. So it was making all that up on there. What platforms were they Yeah, this was on these When forums rained, so we would highly customized at the time what was called InVision power board. And highly, highly customize it. It was all written in PHP. And yeah, so it became popular, there was millions of people using it, it was never a huge commercial success. Ended up basically giving it back to the community to run and to own. And it still exists today. So that’s different in my mind than some of these Esports teams and whatnot. But they’re so interesting enough, one of my best friends, not best friends, but a good friend in London founded fanatic, which is one of the top three sports teams in the world. And he founded this back in the mid-nineties. And of course, everyone told him, he was insane. And he was insane. Because he was too early for quite a long time. And then it just worked. And now it’s a massive success. So I didn’t see a lot of people that were on my site ultimately joined Esports teams, but then they had to retire, right? Because in eSports, by the time you’re spending on the game, you play by the time you’re 23 to 25, you’re getting a bit old, especially if you play FPS. So first person shooter up, you’ve got to have super fast reactions.


Jeff Malec  11:10

that’s like literally their physical abilities. RPE is 23? Or is it inside of the mental as well.


Chris Dark  11:18

And then most, of course, go and do something else. But some of them become trainers and coaches. You know, it’s kind of crazy, you can play some games much longer into your 30s. But I’ve actually


Jeff Malec  11:31

noticed that just playing against my kids like Madden and like, basic stuff, and they’re starting to beat me. I’m like, what’s going on? Like, this is


Chris Dark  11:40

the look, I said 20 years ago, it will be the biggest sport and everyone said I was insane. And it took 20 years and I think now it is the biggest sport about half a billion people watch eSports roughly once a month or more. That’s I don’t think that many people even watch soccer these days. So it’s pretty crazy.


Jeff Malec  12:00

But revenue wise, it’s nowhere near like NFL. It’s


Chris Dark  12:03

such an interesting, you’ve got the eyeballs of who young people who by the way, you know whether it’s millennials and Zoomers that they’re starting to get money and oh, the average amount of money you make per user is literally nothing compared to say Manchester United. Yeah. Yet the greatest Esports players over the next few years will become as famous as a Ronaldo or whoever. Very interesting.


Jeff Malec  12:29

But you think they’ll have like those $300 million contracts and whatnot, or it’s,


Chris Dark  12:33

I don’t know, I mean, maybe it’d be deflationary in some ways. You’ve got such short careers too, it might be a bit more tricky to build that brand. But I’m pretty one way that the way people Esports teams are monetizing is rapidly evolving. You know, far beyond just the original ways. We’re just sponsorships simple advertising, and, you know, just merchandise is a huge thing. And now broadcast rights. You know, when literally 10s of millions of people can be watching a specific stream. People care that’s more than watches any of the US networks. Yeah. So but you know, these, but your people watching will be everywhere in the world. It’s very hard to monetize someone in Vietnam say versus us. So yeah, sorts of challenges, but I think it’s a fascinating space. And


Jeff Malec  13:23

yeah, my brain always goes to what like, wouldn’t the blizzards of the world like hey, there’s so much money being made there? We need a piece of the action.


Chris Dark  13:32

Right? But they do I mean, that at the end of the day that I mean, they’ve always been ahead of the curve Blizzard on having good multiplayer tools from the early days of Battlenet. And, but at the end of day, they’re selling more games. I mean, if you’re you have fortnight or they love the facts, or if you produce the Liga legends, you love the fact it’s a massive game because you’re just selling well why not fortnight you’re not selling copies, it’s free to play, but you’re gonna have many more transactions losers.


Jeff Malec  14:01

Yeah. Moving on, you mentioned working capital marketplace, what’s a working capital marketplace? Yeah, well, it’s,


Chris Dark  14:14

it’s funny, I see. Maybe one thing that does unify me is I’ve just tried to disrupt banks in many different ways. This is this is one so this is very geeky b2b type stuff. So every business is owed money. Yeah, accounts receivable, and every business owe some money Accounts Payable broadly, the accounts payable of the world should roughly equally account receivable. And traditionally, if you’ve been owed money, but you’re not going to be paid it for 6090, or indeed, in some parts of Asia, 150 days, US tends to have actually quite short payment terms versus the rest of the world. And, you know, traditionally you could go to your bank, you might be able to get some form of working capital loan or you might do some factoring. Different countries have different dynamics. But it tends to be slightly cumbersome, the rates might not be great. And it just takes time. So what we built was a, but at the same time, if you’re a big corporate name any corporate Amazon, they have DEF Treasury, and that Treasury isn’t earning much yield. And so the whole idea was, well, if you can bring together several, and we did start in US retail, several your large US retailers, their suppliers will be the same. So if you supply Costco, you probably supply Amazon and Walmart and whoever else right. And, and so, and those suppliers, yeah, they might be being paid in 45 days, 50 days, whatever it is, what are the way where they could, in effect name, their own rate, or their own price or a discount to saying Amazon or Walmart. And, and then, but that to be part of basically a much wider marketplace. So you might have 10s of 1000s of suppliers wanting to be paid early, and they’re willing to offer different discounts, which you can analyze into a rate. And then what the technology did was work out, which would have good offers and the less good offers and then the good offers tend to get paid early, but from the corporates cash that was on their balance sheet, so you didn’t need to go through any banks, there were no intermediaries, there was no lending, there was no risk. And we were directly integrated into a lot of the world’s largest companies, ERP systems, so directly into the ERP system. And it’s really a giant network effect business. It’s a great business. And we’ve scaled it around the world. And of course, a lot of these companies are multinational, they have suppliers all across the world, that you just have this big network of buyers and suppliers. I think now it would be the 10th it will be in the top 10 providers of all trade finance in the world if I’m not wrong. Well. So the and the other nine are all banks. Yeah, I mean, literally Standard Chartered JP Morgan, the big Chinese banks, you know, it’s going to be really quite a big company.


Jeff Malec  17:10

Isn’t wasn’t this Brit in the news for? What was that? Uh,


Chris Dark  17:16

oh, that was Greensville. Capital. Yeah, yeah, it’s Australian. Okay. So


Jeff Malec  17:20

what is that similar?


Chris Dark  17:23

Well, I just learned it, I actually can’t go into that too much. Okay. So it was slightly different. But similar, but it was actually using, there was credit risk involved. Yeah, they were fronting the money, essentially. Yeah. So it was money wasn’t coming directly from a corporate balance sheet. So if you in an ERP system, if you know, I’ve noticed just name a random company, if you know Amazon’s going to pay an invoice in 30 days, and they’ve approved that invoice if Amazon pays it early with their own money, but gets paid, say 99 and a half dollars in 100. So there’s a good deal for everyone. There’s no credit risk there. And you don’t need a bank. So the whole idea was, you know, you don’t need to have risk underwriting the world’s accounts payable and accounts receivable, because frankly, these are just factual things, whether they’re, yeah, it’s just like a logistics problem with ones and zeros. And they just needed the net network to be built, which is what we did. Yeah.


Jeff Malec  18:21

And then so some of these groups was venture capital, which again, is totally different than superconductors and eSports, maybe similar to eSports. A little bit, but how do you view venture capital as an asset class? Do you view it as a separate asset class? What do you you it’s kind of risk return profile as?


Chris Dark  18:41

Oh, for sure. I mean, I mean, I, we started Tomica. In 2009 2010, I left in about 14. And to this day, um, there are still companies that haven’t, you know, there is still a liquid from that first


Jeff Malec  18:55

funds that are on your balance your personal balance sheet. So yeah, so


Chris Dark  18:59

that, if you’ve worked in venture capital, and had and the Atomico has been very successful, whether you’re there or used to be there, and you have to, you know, wait a long time for carry payments, is a totally different asset classes the most, because you’re literally the LPS there are literally locking up money for 10 plus years. completely and utterly locking it up. Yeah. And yes, there are ways I mean, back in 2010, that really, that was when Facebook started to change how the secondary markets worked. And so you, you could start to cash out a little earlier of some of the most successful companies and that’s the trend that’s definitely carried on. But, but you’re gonna have to sell it at a discount. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, it’s a completely different asset class to private equity because it’s, you know, the return profile is totally different. You know, people are, you know, whilst PE might be double figure aprs is very good and adventure you’re looking 2530 to get you into the IRR. I was to get you into the top kind of quartile. And it’s a brutal asset class because I mean, most venture firms don’t make it. And they, it’s like most businesses that are started, they don’t succeed. And it tends to be one where if you’ve had success in the past, more entrepreneurs want you to invest in them. And so you get access to better deals, and it’s a bit of a flywheel. Look at this with a Sequoia or benchmark and the great firms in us. And then they leveraged those loss acquire, especially around the world to build their brand. But I mean, not surprising. The most successful investments were things I understood computer game companies like Supercell Rovio, that Angry Birds, these giant successes, companies like Kleiner, that that’s again, that’s financial services always had an interested there. It’s disrupting banks and credit cards. So generally, when I invested in things I didn’t really understand it was. Yeah, often it’s just because you believed in the entrepreneur, but that’s a kind of a cheesy thing to say, I think, yeah. Yeah, they didn’t work as well. But again, if you’re not, you know, you’ve got to lose some investments to make the 100x Plus gains on others. So, yeah,


Jeff Malec  21:07

What does that math look like? Generally, in your experience of like, your, what was your hit rate, one out of 10, one out of 20. Now, it


Chris Dark  21:15

depends. This is the thing, though, you gotta remember that most funds ultimately will be defined by one or two companies in venture. I mean, just look at the funds that invested in Facebook or Uber or whatever I can’t know, for example, you know, client is a, an investment of Atomico. That’s public information. And that’s a giant success. So normally, you’ll get one or two that will pay back the fund or multiples of, and then a whole bunch in the middle that return, you know, 1020 30% of the fund, and then a whole bunch of zeros. And some of the zeros take a long time. Yeah, some a quick, but it was a stage right? If you’re if your seed stage versus late stage, completely different return profiles, and risks.


Jeff Malec  22:04

And, you know, a little bit about options and gamma and all the rest, like, do you view it as, right? It’s just a big, long option. But like, I mean, I in way out of the money calls


Chris Dark  22:15

it, I would say it’s just a long term way to benefit from broadly, deflation, the deflation nature of technology. Now, I know we’re in a interesting time now of inflation, deflation, but it’s undeniable technology is a deflationary force. And, you know, the people that invest the limited partners and family offices investing in venture capital, genuinely want to lock up a relatively small amount, they’ll have far bigger allocations to, you know, private equity and hedge funds. But they want to lock up a small percentage of their funds for a long, long, long time, completely forget about them, and it to be totally uncorrelated to anything else. Because whilst you could think it’s correlated technology, the point is, as I said, like most funds, the returns are driven by one or two companies, that’s not correlated to certain thing. So


Jeff Malec  23:11

you can have the right technology in the wrong company.



Chris Dark  23:14

Yeah,and so it’s a nice diversifier for that, but it’s, um, but ultimately, you know, in 2001, two when NASDAQ crashed 85%, of course, no one wanted to know about technology, everyone was freaking out. And, of course, that was a generational buying opportunity. Few piled in When Everyone’s panicking. But by Brando 10, when I started in venture, I think it was becoming pretty clear that technology wasn’t going away, you know, Facebook was becoming quite dominant, it was fairly clear to large platforms, we’re gonna, you know, the naysayers on Amazon, we’re getting fewer and fewer. And, yeah, and at the end of the day, it’s, we should be very thankful for technology, because it only goes forwards, unless there’s some like really bad regulation somewhere. And it absolutely has driven down the price of tons of things. And we now we all have a supercomputer in our pocket that literally does the thing of 20 devices used to do.


Jeff Malec  24:11

So. And I’ve said on here many times, like, people don’t think about it in terms of commodities. But the technological advances and commodities have been insane right now we can drill down 3000 feet over 2000 feet, and get this oil that was, you know, we could never get before,


Chris Dark  24:28

hey, a lot of that’s from my degree in material science, a lot of material sciences, how do you make things right? And how do you make drill bits, the harder and better and, and now it’s engineering to when you’re going down and across? And this is all technology, right? Yeah. And, you know, it’s I It winds me up a lot when I see. I just don’t have any clue why. Some politicians are like, seemingly anti technology except they’re not anti technology when a pandemic comes and needs vaccines. which is all based on technology? Of course. Yeah. I just don’t understand. I understand the skepticism that a lot of companies have got too big to fail. And I suspect Europe will lead the charge on genuinely regulating some big tech. But to be fair, they’ve tried to do this to Microsoft for 30 years and got nowhere. Yeah. So


Jeff Malec  25:18

when I view that more as like, the, the kid who killed himself because Robin, are the girls suicide rate going up because of Facebook, things like that, I’m like, okay, maybe there needs to be more regulation around, right the technology itself, but how it’s laid out, I think is the is the rub, and what some of those people calling for the regulation would point out, right.


Chris Dark  25:40

But also like, the problem is normally, what’s happened before is, if you look at most industries, where there’s not really network effects, what happens is an incumbent gets lazy. They, they basically want to goose margin, they’re not going to innovate so much they cut costs, someone else comes in out innovates them, it’s just a very natural cycle it whatever the industry is, it could be a 20 year cycle, a five year cycle, whatever. But in technology, because you can build network effects. It basically means you you’re preventing a lot of smaller companies from innovating. I think that’s the angle they’re going to go for. And I think we have I mean, we’re on Zoom, right? It’s been relatively successful, you know, due to, obviously COVID. I mean, it’s existed for many years. But it was insane how little innovation there was, yeah, conferencing for so many years, because everyone was using the incumbents, Cisco, and whatever. And they were awful. They wouldn’t use mobiles for years, it was the whole thing was a total disaster. And they needed a pandemic to actually get and again, now a lot of people are working on innovations for resumes. And you know, Microsoft’s already getting that. Yeah, I think, yeah, I was


Jeff Malec  26:55

just gonna say, how do you view that as, right? We’re saying, like, if it’s a winner take all network effects. But as a venture guy, isn’t that dangerous to the business model, right? Like, I need to then take the absolute winner, I can’t just


Chris Dark  27:07

write a rising, that’s why late stage capital became so big, because it all went into the big web 2.0 things, and that it had demonstrable network effects. And valuations. You know, when I started, very few companies were made and hundreds of millions unless they were public. And before you knew it, it was a whole bunch of aid in the billions. Yeah, unicorn. And now, you know, 10 100 billion dollar businesses, and good businesses. So but you know,


Jeff Malec  27:34

but you think that kills venture capital or no, or they just have to go later stages?


Chris Dark  27:39

There’s a lot of smart people in venture capital. Yeah, look, the world will have innovation. And now what you’re seeing though, is, you know, you’re seeing, I mean, someone like if you look at how Ark thinks of the world of Cathy word, and they’re looking at different disruptive technologies, and how they start intersecting. And in the past, in the past, with a lot of online stuff, you’ve had kind of silos, and now you’ve got Ai across the top interacting with all sorts of whether it be automation, self driving stuff, and crypto and different things like these are all the smarter VCs now, looking at how these things come together, so that the sum is much greater than the parts. And that so you have to be an expert on more than just like web to technology, right? You’re gonna have to understand how gaming is interacting with cryptocurrencies because there’s a whole monetization and financial layer on NF T’s and collectibles and which have been around in video games for a long time. And so I suspect the VCs will be okay. I’m not sure for them. But


Jeff Malec  28:41

I agree. I just wanted to think that through for a sec. I wanted to dig into your entrepreneur ship routes. You’ve obviously had a lot of success. Like just generally, what percent of your success? I heard you mentioned this friend, that friend, what percent of your success do you attribute to luck first skill?


Chris Dark  29:06

Oh, that’s a good one. What I mean, I think there’s only one I’d say you need both. You know, I mean, anyone that says you don’t need some luck is a lunatic. Yeah.


Jeff Malec  29:17

That’s no good. Elon Musk would say it was 100% skilled, but most others with some balance.


Chris Dark  29:23

But, I mean, I know a lot of entrepreneurs, right, a lot. And a lot of serial entrepreneurs who I mean, I’ll sort of put myself in that category, but not as much. I mean, there are some who are literally just 1520 companies they’ve started and when they and one either sales or succeeds or fails to straight into the next one. You know, somebody try and systematize it. I was kind of always less like that, but um, you absolutely need luck. But you make your own luck, right? You know, you do have to work hard, but you’ve got to be curious. You know, when I was hiring people hiring super crucial, all they really gendered had to care about people that were going to be curious. And I would ask kind of crazy questions. I just want to see how their mind works. Such as well, yeah, I mean, there’s the classic, hilarious things like how many oranges are in Florida? Like, I just want to see how you go about it. I honestly don’t know, my favorite used to be how many transistors are made in the world per second? Because anyone should be able to work it out. But the problem is the number got so big that it because like a long time ago, it was measured in the hundreds of billions or trillions per second. But now it’s just such an astronomically bigger number that you actually were disadvantaged in people who weren’t good at Big math numbers. Which Yeah, but um, but I’m also Yeah, just something in the news. Just do you just take something that’s in the news that maybe you think is misunderstood? Or is different arguments on it? Get into argue both sides? I just want people to, you know,


Jeff Malec  30:57

think on their feet. Yeah,


Chris Dark  30:59

I think it’s always good. If someone’s very long something or passionate about something. Ask them about the opposite point of view. And if they literally can’t answer it, then they probably haven’t been that curious because nothing’s a sure fire certain the world apart from was it death and taxes?


Jeff Malec  31:15

Yeah, the mind was I was what’s the what do you think the most numerous manmade thing on the planet is? Interesting. Yeah. Which I’m transistors is for sure. transistors. Yeah, my bag. Thinking like nails, or screws, or? Yeah, cuz how many transistors are on one?


Chris Dark  31:36

Well, now you’re talking about 50 trillion. So yeah. 50 billion. Sorry, but you think how many are now made? Yeah, the new M ones, or pros are at 50 billion transistors?


Jeff Malec  31:48

Right. And so had to you mentioned systematizing it, but did you think you purposely tried to avoid, like the entrepreneurs trap, right of like, oh, I had success with this, I’m just gonna continue to have success.


Chris Dark  32:01

It’s really interesting. I think where that comes in a lot is through advisors. So a lot of startups have advisory boards, right. And often these are people who are more experienced have had success, and they will always tend to give you the advice that work for them. And what I found was that sometimes that can be wonderful advice. But actually, sometimes it can be terrible advice. And so you’ve got to be able to, and that doesn’t make them bad advisors. Yeah, they’re there to give their advice, because they’ve got experience, they tend to have very small equity positions in the company like tiny, it’s not going to be material for them in general, but they’re trying to give back and help. And I think that’s good. But after you’ve done it a few times, you start to be able to kind of filter out those things. And you may get things wrong, of course, but um, the places where they tended to give more consistently good advice would tend to be things that don’t change human emotion, hiring these types of things. You know, but technology changes so fast that, you know, even something that was five years ago, cutting edge could be irrelevant now. So you just got to kind of watch that a little bit.


Jeff Malec  33:05

And then like, but did you have hard rules against like, I’m not putting money into my friend’s restaurant. And this my wife’s friends started? Yeah, I?


Chris Dark  33:14

I am. I don’t do I honestly, don’t do friends and family. Yeah, I just don’t. And I’m very happy to talk to them about you’ll be one of the advices to invest in and stuff, but I just don’t want to go over that line.


Jeff Malec  33:32

Yeah. And then speaking of friends and family, so this, bringing some personal in here, I don’t think I was taught at a young age, I was taught like, hey, my dad IPO to two companies, one went bust, but was like, Hey, you can be whatever you want. He can be totally successful. But it’s very nebulous, right. If I feel looking back, it would have been better to be like, Hey, here’s what we did on the IPO roadshow. And here’s what these revenues number look like. And you’re, you know, way more statistical. Do you have any feelings like what you’ll pass on to children? Or as an advisor of like specifics, or just generally like, be whatever you want to


Chris Dark  34:09

be? Well? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I do advise for companies I do have children. So for children I want them to I think most educational systems are beyond broken. And I want them to learn creativity, because I think that’s the one thing that really is going to matter in the next well, I can’t say the next 100 years because I have no idea what’s happening then maybe computers will be way more creative. But in the relative short term by the way computers just changed our chest has played after being by Google alphabet literally made chess more creative. People are now sacrificing more using the wings more like the flanks it’s very interesting. Give me the denotes being creative of course, but it but it was and so a creative creativity curiosity and understand having a basic grasp of what money is and the financial world and all this? It’s just not taught at schools. Anyway, really well, there might be some places but and entrepreneurship, taking risks getting things wrong, not being ashamed of that. But you know, working hard and having a good crack. I mean, it’s just I am not that I’m not going to sit there for hours teaching my kids to write perfectly. I don’t think you’re going to need to write


Jeff Malec  35:26

why don’t you should still be able to hold a pencil and write. But yeah, I was drilled in it so much as a kid I just not relevant now. So Right. Like, if your handwriting was wrong, you had to like stay in from recess? Absolutely. What’s that all about? And yeah, I teach my like, the jobs you might have might not exist yet. Right? So you need to be a YouTuber


Chris Dark  35:46

now. So like, everyone, yeah, under 10 off. But again, they don’t realize necessarily that one and 100,000 people are going to build a super huge YouTube channel of millions of subs. Yeah, but you know, I don’t know, kind of in the UK, which I don’t wanna piss on their parade and say that, you know, it’s not possible, of course possible. It’s hard.


Jeff Malec  36:05

And how far out are we from? Like, there’s got to be some AI engine somewhere that could be like, hey, this would be a good thing to do a YouTube video about and be an infant. Right. So there are people out there.


Chris Dark  36:16

Yeah. But you could have a


Jeff Malec  36:19

forgetting the term Netflix for YouTube, right? You’re basically just what Netflix will do is create content where they know it will work. It’s the same thing. But I’m saying like a CGI influencer, right. Like, you don’t even have the influencer. So the company makes the money by creating the CGI influencer?


Chris Dark  36:34

Like, I’ve seen some CGI That was so good. Yeah, basically can’t tell. Yeah.


Jeff Malec  36:42

Awesome. Um, and then, as you’re advising some of these guys in defi, and wherever you’re doing, what’s some of the lessons that you pass on, or one piece of advice that you give them?


Chris Dark  36:56

Well, again, I think an entrepreneur, whatever you’re doing, it really doesn’t matter what it is, you just got to be curious. You’ve got to be, you got to get that balance between internal and external. Some people. And again, this could be different people within a company that but if you’re running the company, you’ve got to be aware of what’s going on outside. You can’t be too much in your own pigeonhole. But again, you’ve got to know you know, the details of this is what you’re doing, as you know, and you can’t say, oh, because I’m not that technical. I can’t understand what engineers are doing. It’s not acceptable. You’ve got to get to a certain level of competence across everything, can’t say, Well, I’m not good at this HR stuff. So I don’t really care about the people stuff. I mean, that’s obviously crucial. So I mean, as companies get bigger, you tend to trend towards 100% of your time being involved in just dealing with people. So I don’t know if there’s a law like Bedford law or something there. But it’s pretty much how it seems to be


Jeff Malec  37:58

Darks law,


Chris Dark  37:59

just maybe, there we go. Darks Law.


Jeff Malec  38:06

Moving on to your kind of how you view the world in investment. So it seems you’re more on the stay rich business and the get rich business these days.


Chris Dark  38:14

Yeah. Both but I mean, I think it’s an interesting one. I mean, once you’ve had some success, I mean, I mean, obviously, the classic is, you know, you’ve got to work, you’ve got to speculate to accumulate, but you’ve got to, you’ve got to concentrate to accumulate. And then I don’t know anyone that has made some money that doesn’t diversify to some degree. There’s the odd person in crypto that hasn’t, because there’s so focused, and it tends to be it could be Bitcoin or Aetherium. Either way, it’ll be one of those generally, there’s so convinced that that will change the world. They’re literally 100% or more than 100%. Long. One thing. I mean, I personally, that’s insane. Yeah, but I don’t want to be in 500 different things each have a fraction of percent allocation, and I become an index. That’s not interesting to me either. So I want to find a middle ground. And I also only want to invest. I saw I use several external managers for things that I don’t like doing myself. So for eight, you mentioned options earlier. Well, sure. I’ve traded options, and I can bore you about what all the Greeks mean and all the different geeky things and get to third derivatives and why we should pay attention I just realized I didn’t enjoy it. And when it came to long volatility investing, or indeed volatility harvesting, I short vix with long call, long call protections, fixed bucks and ie the penny in front of the steamroller trade, stuff like that. Very stressful to be doing it. pay someone else to do it. Don’t worry about it. So I realized, you know, life’s too short to to get too stressed about things you don’t have to and you have to Hey a bit for someone else to do it, but that’s fine. What I enjoy investing in is long, longer term medium to long term, I would say kind of out of consensus strategic things like to get in before something not so early that you’re waiting for, like, we all know the investor that thinks something’s going to be big. And for like, you know, six years, they’ve been saying the same thing has but only a great example, in the last year or so has been uranium miners, like, you know, it’s to me as a scientist, like, it’s completely obvious that I cannot believe politically or technologically, we’re not going to have electricity running in 10 years time the lights will be on. Yeah, like, there’s just no way we’re going to use less energy in 10 years to now, we’re just not civilization uses more, we use it for all sorts of different uses. And by the way, life expectancy goes up and quality of life goes up. So the electricity will be running in 10 years. But it seems pretty obvious, it isn’t going to be powered by coal and gas. Renewables don’t solve everything. There’s any there are countries like Brazil, New Zealand, that can have huge amounts of hydrogen. But that’s very, very rare. There’s only one game in town and it’s nuclear. And as much as some people love it, and hate it, it just seemed obvious to me and now in the last few months, that’s kind of really become much more on Vogue. But um, that’s the type of stuff so, but I’ll very patiently build positions might still use some options and stuff. But um, but long term stuff. Another good example recently is carbon credits. It’s kind of related to some degree, but again, not an obvious thing that everyone talks about. But again, do you think politicians are going to give up and the biggest market by far Europe, a European politician is going to give up on carbon? Of course, then? No, zero charge? So I mean, you know it, I love stuff like that.


Jeff Malec  41:58

And so by out of consensus, you don’t mean that’s been battered down your knife by a falling knife? I’m just not.


Chris Dark  42:05

Well, I do that on things I have huge conviction on because so I’m that weirdo, right that. So when bitcoins had its massive crashes in the last seven, eight years, as in, you know, the crash to 200 years ago, the crash to 3100, the COVID crash, other ones like, this thing’s gone down, like 85%, which is what the NASDAQ went down, right? In 2002. In fact, it’s very similar. I absolutely love buying stuff that when everyone is absolutely freaked out, screaming leisure, everyone’s just a straight arrow. Because for me, it’s just like, Well, okay, if it goes to zero, or it goes up massively bull, okay. Don’t put money in that you can afford to lose. But having said that, not afraid to take risk. I’ve always found that easier if you have a conviction on an asset to buy when it goes down. And, and it’s kind of it’s kind of funny, I like when it when things go down a bit, and my eyes went down, okay. And then when it goes down a lot, I start just laughing at it and be like, Hey, can we just go down even more? Right? And when I tweet that people get very upset with me. But


Jeff Malec  43:13

I yeah, I’ve got a good blog post, I’ll put in the show notes of we hope it goes to zero. Like in the Manage feature space back in Oh, eight, right. Right. We were short, everything trend following? Yeah. And just money was coming in hand over fist was like, we hope it goes to zero. And we’d say that at cocktail parties and stuff. And people look at you like what, what are you crazy, like they’re crying and they’re right,


Chris Dark  43:37

cocktail. You’ve got to buy when there’s blood on the streets. And what I find more difficult is when to sell. So I’ve just taken the emotion out of it and I write down I mechanically sell especially high vol assets that high vol assets. And it doesn’t just have to be crypto, but it could be private companies that became public that you own stock in. They can have very high volatilities you know, in triple figures, right? I, you’re expecting five to 6% moves every day. It’s very hard not to get emotionally attached to those things in different ways. And so I have to take the emotion out, because I know that’s what I’m bad at. And I will just literally agree with my wife while we’re selling some things not all of it, just bits of it. And then I will just mechanically put those orders in and just forget about


Jeff Malec  44:24

  1. And how to deal with that. What’s that look like in my life? You’re buying at 5800 or whatever on the COVID crash. Right? I feel like most that I’m gonna get out of Summit 10,000 and summit 15. So, the thing


Chris Dark  44:39

is, that was such a, I didn’t actually I actually know I did buy that dip a little bit but I used futures. So it was very short term trade. So I was just like, why use futures to just, you know, yeah, it did a V and I just got out. You don’t hold the futures because the contango issue, right. Yeah, that’s a whole different ballgame on the kind of stupidity of having a Bitcoin futures ETF but not a spot one even though spot winning As in many countries, not least Canada, but um, no when it was, for example, the, the crash to 200 Auto crash to 3100. In, which happened in 18, I tend to wait for a higher low, just to kind of I want to see a first higher low and then I’m going to come in, and then it just, um, on a daily basis or weekly I mean I’m looking at I’m generally that type of stuff, daily candles and crypto things move very fast, right? If you’re looking at weekly or monthly is you can I can I can double. But then when you go you just commit and then then I’m pretty much in my mind not thinking about that for probably two or three years. And but as something like Bitcoin, a theorem has gone up so much that you just becomes a bigger part of a portfolio. And I just think you’re nuts not to sell some of it. It doesn’t for me, what I say to people is that makes I sell some because I believe in it so much. And they look at me like I’m insane. And like, yeah, I believe in it so much. I don’t I want to sell some so I don’t become too emotionally attached in a way that I made bad decisions like, and I don’t know if everyone can understand that logic. But I think I mean, about a year ago, I did a podcast with Raul Powell about 100x investing and the emotions of it all. And it was kind of fun and like, and this can only really happen in crypto options, technology, it’s pretty hard to get 100x in a muni bond. Right. I mean, that’s gonna be pretty tricky. Or Moonies? Yeah. I mean, it will be very tricky. But there are plenty of ways. And, you know, I just realized that the more as you take risk and get comfortable with basically triple figure volatility assets on a 30 day basis. You, you obviously, you’re going to lose your shirt sometimes. Right. So you think it’s always good to take profits, always good to take emotion out of it. But, but having said that, if you generally believe in something in the long run, you know, like there should be millions of Americans to the millionaires from Amazon stock. But there’s not. Right, right. Why? Because most sold when it doubled. And there’s tons of people. I mean, people love finding old Twitter posts about Bitcoin, as you know, that bought for $4 sold for $8, you know, in late 2011. And we’re super happy, right? And literally people love, there’s this whole meme of retweeting someone from back then saying, How do you feel now, and sometimes the original person posts back I just like, I’m just, I’m still just that insight. It’s like, yeah, it could have been a billionaire. And, you know, but, of course, some people did it and still kept a bunch. You know?


Jeff Malec  47:52

That, how do you view that in terms of like, I have this issue, everyone seems to be going through these 100 exes, I view it as like parlay bets and football, gambling, right? If you bet 10 teams, you get paid whatever, 21. But the odds of that are super small. So my brain goes, if I keep going for this large payoff, my odds of success are small, small, small, small. So it’s you got to be careful, you’re not just bleeding this premium going for that huge payout.


Chris Dark  48:21

Right? But I’m not that’s why I like Bitcoin so much, because I don’t need to use options. Yeah,


Jeff Malec  48:27

well, but I’m saying even the even the concept if you put some in Bitcoin and some of this coin and some of that, right, if you put it across 10 coins, thinking you’re gonna get 100 Right, but I’ve been there, right?




Chris Dark  48:38

In 17. A lot of people went there. And it was, and one could argue now there’s more use of a lot of the, let’s just say non Bitcoin on a theorem Cryptos because, yeah, they’re gonna theorem Arabic two, right. And there’s no question on that. I mean, one could argue all day, whether there will be forevermore or not, Forever is a long time, right? So the heat death of the universe? Yeah. I’m kind of careful on using words like that. But again, I don’t know many people that put all their money into bitcoin in 2011, let’s say when it was a fraction, or $1, or whatever, literally all their money and then just sat on it for 10 years, right? Like, they might be the odd person on the planet that did that. But literally, like, it’s the same people that went into the theorem Ico at like, 30 to 35 cents, whatever it was like. But, you know, there are some, but I think what most certainly what I did was put in some money. A good long time ago, but then increase positioning as I got more confident on it over time. It’s writing your winners, right? And then having the confidence to buy big, big, big dips. And when everyone’s screaming when the fear and greed index is that one out of 100 like flashing red massive fear But on the streets, and then actually to commit more capital much more capital over time. And again, you’re not going to get like the massive, massive returns that were once possible. But your this is what you learned in venture capital, you know, you could put money into seed companies, and you could get a 300x now and again. But if you only put 100k, in, that’s 30 million, well, in a fund of 300 million, so any attempt to the fund, it’s not that interesting, really not bad, it’s a good investment, I get me wrong. But if you put in 30 million pounds, pounds, dollars, euros, whatever, into something that 10 x’s that does pay back the fund. So how much capital one deploys, I just think is a very natural function of one’s conviction, which is generally a function of how much work someone’s put into it, and how comfortable they are. Yeah,


Jeff Malec  50:49

I just worry this new YOLO type meme around there, right of like, all these investors going to be just spending spending spending, trying to get that 300x. Right, but ending up with a bunch of zeros.


Chris Dark  51:02

Sure. But it’s interesting, because you now we’re going to get geeky, but in effect, what’s happening is you’re getting it’s almost like a Vanner squeeze. So like you’ve got so I we’re looking at how delta is changing with volatility. And so what happened with AMC and stuff was volatility went so this is why Bitcoin is such an important asset, because volatility often increases as the price goes up. And this is very rare, of course, you know, 99% of the time, stocks trend, up over a period and their volatility tends to decrease. And then when you have a crash, volatility spikes, will you look at you look at the Bitcoin volatility chart, going back before going back as long as you can, and do this experiment, print out the chart and try and guess it get rid of the years? So you don’t know when it is? Try and guess for each of the volatility spikes up and down? Whether the price of Bitcoin went up or down? It’s absolutely impossible. To do that with the s&p, you will do it with 100% accuracy. Yeah. So that’s why a lot of people can’t model Bitcoin very well. And this is what happened with AMC, you basically got this increase in volatility with increasing price, and it drove all the deltas, you had to have all this gamma hedging, and then they had to buy all the underlying and it was, but it was just this. I didn’t spot that. Right. I kind of worked out now. But it’s really interesting that I’ve been dealing with that with Bitcoin for years, and Aetherium and whatever.


Jeff Malec  52:31

But there’s not really the dealer hedging mechanism in Bitcoin or there is a there is a deal is


Chris Dark  52:37

it’s different. Right? So because the largest options exchanges terabit by mile, right. All right, you’ve now got the options on the futures ETF, which is the citadels screen as usual, guys. But with Bitcoin in the futures and options space, you tend to have a lot of well, I mean, I don’t trade in that. But like, there’s a lot of people like me that are actually performing those market maker functions. And that obviously, crypto specific hedge funds doing it and some more traditional ones. But let’s give it a few years, it will be the citadels or the one thing Yeah. So but it’s just fascinating. You’ve got no, I just I don’t know who ever said it. But you know, history doesn’t repeat itself. But it rhymes. Sure. I mean, there’s just so much to learn on how markets are evolving. And if you just, you know, it’s like the perma bears who always want everything to crash and like, well, you know, you’re going to be right, once every 10 years, but you’re going to be crushed in the meantime. And I remember in March 2020, there was so happy all these people that have massive Twitter accounts. And, you know, and then of course, none of them. They they’d always said they’ll flip long risk. You know, when there’s a crash course they couldn’t, they didn’t. I mean, very few of us saw that. I got the dip down, I did not get the v shape up in terms of money. Very few people did. If I didn’t know anyone that got both the down in the up.


Jeff Malec  54:05

They did worse than not getting the up. I was selling the


Chris Dark  54:08

right. Absolutely. So I just think you know, there’s so much for me like the crypto market so interesting, because there’s just so much innovation going on. It’s not with the traditional players. And by the way, they’re trying to regulate it and no one really knows how to do it and but it’s at the end of the day, Bitcoins, the commodity. And if you believe that politicians want to get reelected, which is the thing I believe unifies all politicians in the world, broadly, they don’t really care about the plebs. Right? But they absolutely care about being reelected. Don’t get me wrong. They’re absolutely exceptions to this where a politician is very principled on a local issue or certain issue and that’s what they do, and that’s fantastic, and they can absolutely have change. But in most of the western world, you have a lot of career politicians. I mean, I think it really started in UK may be us, but just people who, because you had so many advisors in UK to people like Tony Blair and David Cameron, and so you have all these politicians who have never done a day’s kind of work in their life, they have no experience doing anything else apart from politics, and, and for them, it’s all about being reelected. They’re never going to make tough decisions, which means they don’t, I don’t believe they care in any way about fiat currency in general. And I don’t mean like about the euro to USD exchange rate, I mean, Fiat in general, I just don’t think they care. They certainly not thinking about a 20 year time horizon.


Jeff Malec  55:37

Say they’re not planting trees, right. They’re just I mean, Summer, right, don’t get me wrong.




Chris Dark  55:41

I mean, I used to live in Hong Kong. And I was there for six years, I went to China many, many, many, many times, and all over China. And again, people can have big pros and cons about the CCP, don’t get me wrong, but like, but they do think long term. And they have one of the few political systems, most of the rest of the world is, I would say, two to five year systems, because you can argue to us as a two year system, because of the midterms, and the whole of the house being redone every two years. And the UK says the longer end, which is five years. But without term limits. And these things which most places don’t have on normal politicians. They just don’t, they just wanna get reelected. So they’re going to destroy the app in my mind. And I just want to be long things that are priced in fear, the denominator, and by the way, if I’m not saying the Zimbabwe inflation, or this or that, whatever, but it, it’s pretty obvious that when you have debt levels to the triple figure debt to GDP, you either default, or you use inflation to get rid of it eventually.


Jeff Malec  56:45

When third option of just like a global reset,


Chris Dark  56:50

which is in effect a default, right? So


Jeff Malec  56:52

yeah, but by default, we’ll know


Chris Dark  56:55

if it’s a default, where the euro to US dollar ratio may not change, but I suspect the Euro and US dollar to gold, or Bitcoin or oil or whatever, you know, genuine commodity or hard assets that that would change. Politicians can’t help themselves. So I can’t really see that changing. Hence, why being long things that are scarce, whether it be arts, Bitcoin, not not necessarily. I mean, obviously, commodities have done well on last year, but they’re not necessarily scarce. But things that genuinely cannot be just produced at Well, I think makes a lot of sense. And the intersection of this like digital and FTS, these are all fun things.


Jeff Malec  57:42

Yeah. But can’t they be created it? Well, I mean, if they have a timestamp or whatnot, but


Chris Dark  57:47

Oh, right. But if you have a collection of 100 of something, and that’s that in the clock, the smart contract is closed. You can’t create more, someone could copy paste it short. But then they’ve created a separate thing. It’s that’s not the Mona Lisa. That’s a copy. We all know where the Mona Lisa is. There’s one we all agree on it. Yeah, the nice thing about time stamping and digital art is you can you can absolutely know which one was first on the blockchain, and it’s quote unquote, the real one. But you know, I think it’s just very misunderstood by a lot of people and FTS, because it’s just digital flexing, right? I mean, people have used art to flex their wealth for literally 1000s of years. People have used cars, they’ve used houses, they’ve used all these things. But you’ve literally now got $3 trillion of wealth generally in millennials and Zoomers, but of course, some are now institutions in the space. And people want to flex that in different ways. And one way is that’s worked a lot in the last year or so is by NF T’s and by profile pictures. And yeah, I It’s I don’t think it’s any different to someone saying, Come and look at my castle.


Jeff Malec  58:57

Yeah. And I view it as a lot like owning a URL, right? Yeah. Like you could, you could copy whatever’s on my URL, and you look, you’re your own, but like, I own the address, I own the actual thing where the it’s being done there, right.


Chris Dark  59:12

Wikipedia is still Wikipedia, right? You could literally take every word and put it somewhere else, and no one will go there. So you know, but look, with these new things. It’s good. There are naysayers. And you know, I think it it’s good having these types of debates. And do I think every NFC is gonna go up in value? Of course not. That’s absolutely ludicrous. I mean, vast majority of them will be worth zero. Yeah. You know,


Jeff Malec  59:39

and do you think it’s rife with corruption right now? Like,


Chris Dark  59:43

I don’t know about, like beating each other up? Yeah, I mean, that’s the new about me. I mean, I’ve got some NF T’s and I only bought them in projects where I know the people behind them, like pretty quite well and I cannot guarantee they’re not bidding against others, but I will be very surprised. I think most people if you know someone has good morals, then they tend to be tend to be okay. But yeah, of course, if you’re like some random thing you hadn’t heard about a week ago and is suddenly worth whatever, and it’s a bunch of you don’t even know who’s behind it. Well be prepared for a rug poll. I mean, it’s, it’s just so obvious, but I just don’t understand how.


Jeff Malec  1:00:24

And then to me the another confusing part, like I’m a big Star Wars fan. So I wanted to be like, I went out, I saw some of these lightsaber ones. Yeah. But then, doesn’t Disney come in? And be like, No, this is trademark infringement. You can’t Oh,


Chris Dark  1:00:37

absolutely. They do. But then they might not know who to sue. And yeah, so there’s lots of fascinating The same happened in the music industry, right. In the you had, it was different. But you know, in the world of bizarre Napster and this stuff you had, again, things were being digitized, in a way that med distribution became, in effect free. Yeah. And actually, some of those sites I mentioned, were actually the early pioneers of sort of like blockchain type databases. supernodes it was very interesting, right? Decentralized networks. And they’ll get that what I love about NF T’s is that you can program them to the artist every time it’s sold gets, say 10% of it. So it can create a recurring revenue stream for the artist, not the Auction House. But the actual artist, the creator, I think that’s going to be one of the very powerful things that comes from this. And which, in effect, they get royalties. I think that’s pretty cool. There’s no more starving earnest. Yeah. And literally, it’s locked like the beauty of it. It’s literally in the code like you can’t change it. Of course, that has issues too. Sometimes people do bad code, but you know, we learn from this


Jeff Malec  1:01:51

and when and so you’re mainly a Bitcoin guy, or you’re like because everything you’re saying is Aetherium based or not so


Chris Dark  1:01:59

I always say I’m a 90% Bitcoin maximalist just to annoy everyone because Bitcoin maximalists literally like there’s nothing but Bitcoin everything else is stupid. Everything’s a scam. Oh, everyone’s untrustworthy don’t trust verify like, you know, it’s great. Okay, fine. And you know, everything that’s bad about Bitcoin is a feature is what should have it and some of the things Bitcoin fixes this. Yeah, yeah, I mean, Bitcoin is slow to change. It just had taproot but taproot took literally five years to happen. And most people don’t even know that does like, what’s the point of it? It’s slow to change. It’s like the oil tanker that Yeah. I love that in the form of hard money that’s predictable, and is based on math. Like, so in terms of how I invest in it. Yeah, I mean, I’m not exactly 90% Bitcoin, but it’s very, very high percentage. I’ve always held Aetherium. I think the theorems great, because I mean, NF T’s, by the way, crypto punks came out in 2017. Right? No one cared about them. People were buying them for $1. Right? Like, I mean, literally, people are literally 1 million next thing on these things. And that Aetherium we had defy last summer? Well, you know, a lot of people are not banked in the world defy starts happening, stable coins start rocketing up, you know, structurally, the market shifted from having Bitcoin to whatever token pairs to be the token versus a stable coin, that was a big shift from 17, where everything was traded against Bitcoin or eath. Something, Bri. And you’ve had entire countries like Salvador, which I’m totally get is not the biggest place in the world. But it’s kind of interesting what they’re doing. You, you know, I do believe the current system is really sucky if you’re not wealthy. And people can like you can be deep platformed, you can be unbanked have to be alternatives. I’ve no idea what people can be using a theorem for in three years time, probably very different things. They have to upgrade the whole network, which is a huge technical task. It’s like, what’s the head of a theorem is, it’s like flying a plane and having to change the wings and the engines at the same time. They’re doing it in stages. They’re moving from proof of work to proof of steak. That’s just one of many, many big technical challenges and indeed, potentially economic challenges. But I think it’s amazing. We’re having this experimentation at a half a trillion dollar asset scale. Yeah. Because most companies that half a trillion dollars, I think this is like a relatively unique thought of mine. Like, I’m sure someone else said it before. But most companies are half a trillion dollars. Pretty boring. I mean, you could maybe say Tesla’s different but most companies at that scale, they have a product, they have their revenue streams. They’re going along the path. They’re not massively innovative anymore. When by


Jeff Malec  1:04:46

design if they come out with something crazy their stock will correct have


Chris Dark  1:04:50

Yeah, yeah, on the theorem, we have a half a trillion dollar asset, which is still in some ways the Wild West is nowhere near as decentralized as Bitcoin. I think that’s pretty Pretty obvious, but like, that’s fine. I don’t think regulators know what to even vaguely do with a whole bunch of it. There’s very old laws in some countries that one could argue either way, whether they’re relevant or knots. And Bitcoin just trundles along, which I do think is a feature, not a bug. But having said that, with networks like lightning being built upon Bitcoin, suddenly, yeah, I generally believe in 10 years, a Bitcoin on chain Bitcoin transaction on the base layer will be considered a massive luxury that will cost people 1000s of dollars, and only very few will ever do it, because everything like Nick parties, but glad money, but that money has always been left. And it’s no different in these digital things. And the last is just being built, like in public with open source software. I think it’s incredible. Yeah, for everyone to see. You know, I also just think I know we’re running out of time, but I just think like, I just see a massive amount of salt online from people that have missed stuff, they miss Bitcoin fine. And they miss the theorem, because the F and then they miss whatever, and they every time, there’s just, I just don’t understand why an asset manager wouldn’t put, as long as they’re allowed to, just or did in that PA is like, just a little bit like, because then you start to learn about it more, it’s like if you if you have a whatever it is an ETF on your p&l and versus a you know, holding it in a paper account, in effect, like, you’re then going to suddenly start to care. And I generally think whilst in 2017 people, institutions investing in this stuff would have got you fired. Now, give it a couple of years, it may well be the opposite. Because there were uncorrelated and it’s huge. And you don’t have to be a Bitcoin, maximalist or eath head or whatever. It’s just very hard to dismiss a $3 trillion industry that didn’t exist just over 10 years ago.


Jeff Malec  1:06:56

I think the cool trick is how do you how do you access it correctly? Right, like, just do Bitcoin, like you’re saying or, right? If I’m a institution, I’m looking at these, how many are there now? 17,000 coins or something?


Chris Dark  1:07:10

18 million? Yeah. 18 million? Bitcoin? Yeah.


Jeff Malec  1:07:15

No, no. Price? No, no, I’m saying the number of coins not


Chris Dark  1:07:21

all talk. Oh, sure. But I’m sorry. But if you’re an institution, the only thing you’re looking at is Bitcoin and maybe Aetherium.


Jeff Malec  1:07:27

Right. But I think that’s the hard part. Why? Why like it. Six years ago, it wasn’t even the theorem was just big, or whatever. So it’s like, how do they wrap their head around?


Chris Dark  1:07:37

Right. But like, I mean, it coin sins, right? I think I don’t think it puts someone put some time into it. I don’t know, if they’re looking at a treasury asset type of thing. I’m not saying everyone is but of course, I mean, that’s different from if you’re just investing, I think if you’re just investing with as a fiduciary, like, it’s pretty obvious, those two have got the lowest volatility by a pretty long way. And that’s where you’re going to start. And they’re the biggest. So I don’t think it takes that much digging to get there. And frankly, the how to buy them as an institution is pretty in most books, certainly in us, whether it’s by NIDA, or whoever, like, you know, there’s pretty robust ways. So a lot, you know,


Jeff Malec  1:08:21

what about that beautiful view behind you and the environmental impacts?


Chris Dark  1:08:27

Oh, I just think this is one of those completely virtue signaling, pieces of rubbish. I mean, I never I never I very rarely say this, but I think Greta Thunberg, tweet after cop 26, or whatever number it was, said it all. She just said, it’s just a bunch of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And she’s like, why can’t you do anything? I said, I don’t always agree with her because, you know, I’m sure she hates Bitcoin mining. But my point is like, well, actually, it can solve a lot of these problems because it allows people to invest in a in in stranded or renewable energy that is way far away from populations that will never be used. And if you’re then plowing money into whether it be hydro, or geothermal, or just using flat gas, which is absolutely done across Texas, you know, people are looking at this in the Middle East now. You could run the entire Bitcoin network just by what Saudi Aramco flares every year, really flat just by and by the way, flaring is horrible for me Thien, sometimes they vent it, which is 100 times worse. And what it allows is investment in renewables. So like, Okay, well, if we want to have better hydro or better geothermal, we have to, we have to go up the cost curve, right, we’re down the cost curve, right, we have to produce more and more and more of it, and every time we double the amount of hydro in the world, it’s going to come down in cost by a certain percentage. So it just incentivizes green investment it is happening and one day just Like I would argue nuclear is very topical at the moment Europe’s looking like it’s gonna put nuclear in the non carbon emitting bucket, which, you know, obviously, it’s in the noncognitive. Yeah. I mean, it’s literally obvious but that’s like a, it’s never been in it because of some of its other issues. But like, the basically Finland says, they’ll store it all. And we trust the fins on stuff like this, because they’re awesome and hardcore. And so I just think it’s a lot of virtue signaling I, I, I’m about any entrepreneur is going to be about what are the solutions? to I think we can all agree when I live in a world that has clean air, clean water, that web, Tonga doesn’t get flooded, and all this stuff, it’s fairly obvious stuff. I think that what are we really going to solve it? You know, it’s got to be Technology and Economics, innovation, this is what will solve it. Don’t get me wrong. I mentioned carbon credits earlier. And I think things like that can again, I’ve got good friends who love them and hate them. But like, they’re not going to solve it on their own. Although that will it add to the economic side? I’m sure. Yeah,


Jeff Malec  1:11:04

I think you have a problem with the we’re having Mike Azlen. You know, him in the UK of carbon cap, they run a fun carbon camp. He’s coming on the pod in a couple of weeks. Okay. Cool. Um, to talk through all that because, yeah, fascinating. Like, that’s been one of the best trending markets of late to and so Oh, carbon,


Chris Dark  1:11:23

it’s been fantastic. It’s gonna be when I first went in it, actually, no, that’s I’d say, that’s never been one. There was non consensus. I just No one knew about it. Yeah. And, and because the futures are almost all in Europe. That’s the big market. I think a lot of us people didn’t like that. But right, British I get the European politics of this. So now there’s ETFs you can just buy and hold. The chart on those is ridiculous. Yeah, most


Jeff Malec  1:11:51

of these us managers still don’t a lot of them do but right.


Chris Dark  1:11:54

So maybe not as cryptocurrencies it is was a climb a dowel or something that they’re buying loads of carbon credits now. And it’s that carbon backing a token? Right. It’s fascinating. Like I didn’t know that until like, literally last week. And there’s an it there’s a thread on Twitter’s claiming that the recent increase in pricing carbon is almost entirely due to this cryptocurrency. I don’t know if that’s true or not. But it’s because it’s only a $400 billion market, maybe 500 billion now. So I say only but that’s nothing really right. That means the institutions are not there.


Jeff Malec  1:12:33

So give me the rest of the portfolio. We talked about the crypto you’ve talked a lot about bonds and duration, and then gold of course, so.


Chris Dark  1:12:41

Oh, so yeah, so I’m generally I only I used to, I don’t own duration, apart from in some external managers have some. I’m just not interested in taking. Whatever, 30 years, there’s not really risk on the dollar. I mean, the dollar can exist, but obviously, it might not be worth much, but I’m not that interested in getting 2% A year from that’s pretty boring to me. Gold of I used to own a fair amount. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I never owned it physically. Just owned ETFs. And I know some of the executives that run these ETFs and the gold is there. People don’t want it to be it actually is. And I know people who


Jeff Malec  1:13:24

have well, they just tell you it is you haven’t seen it. You haven’t watched it with your eyes,


Chris Dark  1:13:28

literally no. Close friends who have audited these pots. I know for certain they’re not lying. In the big well run, like precious metal ETFs. It doesn’t mean there can’t be some form of supply squeeze on these things. But um, Jason I think gold’s done for in the long run, and done for us because of Bitcoin. But But silver, I think is a different beast. And I think it’s very interesting, just because at the end of the day, it is genuinely used and it’s used up all the time because Silver’s actually used as an industrial metal and a catalyst and all sorts of interesting things in 1000s of applications gold has never used up and I Yeah,


Jeff Malec  1:14:10

I’m just you’re speaking my language. I’ve been saying this for years and years.




Chris Dark  1:14:15

So I just I just keep it that simple. And I I’m getting into a theme lithium much more just big not just because I’m not like a Tesla fanboy. I’m just like, I believe the world is short lithium structurally in a five to 10 year time horizon because when solid state batteries come which they will suddenly we can have decentralized storage of power in every home and I know I know now you could get a Tesla Powerwall and other things but they’re just not quite good enough. The next leap in technology, which could be with the liquid ones, or indeed solid state ones, but it doesn’t matter they both use lithium.


Jeff Malec  1:14:56

We have we can store solar then it’s game over right like we Absolutely,


Chris Dark  1:15:00

yeah, it’s so much stuff, right? And then that will be the day when I’m be like, Oh, maybe nuclear is gonna not be so important. Yeah. And that’s fine. I could change mine. Right. But um, so that’s really interesting. And it’s a bit like the rarer space. I mean, and because I mean, lithium is not a rare earth. I mean, obviously, lithium is just number three in the table. But a lot of the miners are in China. There’s a fair amount going on in US, Australia. And there’s a lot of innovation in the lithium space in South Korea, Japan, where there’s a lot of people working on batteries and stuff. So it’s kind of interesting, you. You’re taking a whole lot of different risks, geopolitical, and all of that, but I just think technologically, I think we’re under estimating how many batteries the world’s gonna need in a lot, medium to long term timeframe, therefore, we’re short lithium, therefore, by lithium miners, I don’t think it’s that complex, but I have no idea if it’s going to go up or go down tomorrow, but I’d be pretty surprised if in 10 years, it wasn’t a good investment. So I like stuff like that. But you know,


Jeff Malec  1:16:06

CME launched the lithium futures we want the futures I hate the miners there’s too much you know, hair on those dogs and


Chris Dark  1:16:15

completely but it’s the same with uranium miners, right? There are no dogs and then there’s a whole bunch of run it’s the same of gold. I mean, yeah, that’s GD x j and then you’ve got a whole bunch of stuff that can’t even get in GD XJ I mean, like it’s a yeah, I’d so these types of things I’d never bet the farm on but they’re, you know, how do you I like to, I like to think that there’s still an edge in investing on longer time periods. I suspect the zero edge versus computers enough on a shortened period. So like, a lot of the trend followers and people doing this stuff are of course basing this on. It’s not human emotion. It’s just algos. So I’m not going to beat that.


Jeff Malec  1:16:59

But I put this to the algo. Guys we have here on the top all the time, I’m like outcome, your machine learning and your AI, as I said, like by Toronto real estate are by random are but like these longer term? macro trends. They’re no good at that. Because there’s no, correct. But that’s the human brain has to figure that that pattern.



Chris Dark  1:17:19

Right and one day AI will but we’re not that we’re definitely not there yet.


Jeff Malec  1:17:26

So if you ever have any of your company’s been AI focused or what are your No, no previous,


Chris Dark  1:17:32

we’ve dabbled in AI as a lot of BS with AI. I mean, a friend of mine runs one of the largest AI funds in the world. And he founded one of the largest AI companies in the world that’s actually successful. And you know, he’s just like the amount of snake oil. So yeah, so many companies. I mean, it’s undoubted that people like Google use AI in a way that has genuinely changed things. I mean, they solve chess in four hours. Yeah, like, literally played it differently. And now Magnus Carlsen the world, the best player in the world by mile literally plays differently. After 30 years of chess computers playing incredibly boring chess, but just accurate, accurate. Chess, right? Like, so Undoubtedly, there are ways it can massively help except there’s a famous Facebook paper from years ago that showed that was it Facebook or Google? I know, it was Google, Google came out. But Facebook, reaffirmed it later, which was the amount of data you need to actually generate meaningful information from AI and machine learning is orders of magnitude more than you think you need. And, of course, who got there first, the mega tech companies and who has benefited the most from machine learning AI, the mega tech companies. So, you know, if you think, you know, you need a terabyte of data, you probably the petabyte, I’m just making up the mountains, right? But it was kind of magnitudes difference. I thought that was kind of very interesting, which meant a lot of traditional businesses. So you know, I don’t know what Costco does with AI and just randomly naming a company, but like, I suspect Amazon does a lot more and better, because they just have a lot more data. They’ve kept more data. And that and Costco is an innovative company to REITs I’m not saying they’re bad. Yeah, it’s a great business.


Jeff Malec  1:19:18

That’s one of the bold cases for Tesla, right that they just have so much, much of a data data lead on


Chris Dark  1:19:24

Yeah, I just have no idea if that’s true or not. Yeah, I we have


Jeff Malec  1:19:28

one and just watching as you’re driving around and like the the visual on the screen of like, it can tell this person’s tall and that’s a kid that’s a dog and there’s a bike going past. Yeah, like that stuff. It’s ingesting I don’t know how it’s coding that into that.


Chris Dark  1:19:41

Right. But this real technology that right hardware and software, I mean, no, look, don’t get me wrong, like, I’m not an Elon fanboy. I have met him a few times when he was less famous years ago when I was an investor and asked him about space elevators. He didn’t like that because that wouldn’t be good for SpaceX right?



Jeff Malec  1:20:03

But I’ve The time but I didn’t take our nuclear waste shoot it up there on the space out, man release it to the sun and we’re all getting it.


Chris Dark  1:20:08

I’ll be awesome. Why do I want? Why not? Right? Right? You only one day we will. And but um,


Jeff Malec  1:20:17

I got one more quick thing on space. I


Chris Dark  1:20:19

just one very quick thing. I just think when Elon Musk, I think it’s very hard to argue that, that SpaceX is an incredible company, as then He’s genuinely changing spaceflight. And you can argue down Tesla, fine, whatever. But, you know, I think SpaceX is a genuinely important company, and there will be many more, but seeing reusable rockets and all that. Yeah, that is, and by the way, their safety record is excellent. They’re not cutting corners. But he is cutting some corners, but to iterate fast, but you know, they’ve got an excellent safety record. So I I think that’s a pretty fascinating company,


Jeff Malec  1:20:54

in my lives that he lives there, right?


Chris Dark  1:20:57

Yeah, like a $50,000 Ha.


Jeff Malec  1:21:03

But I’ve always thought I don’t understand why don’t instead of airplane travel, why don’t we like shoot the people up? Let the Earth Spin below us? And


Chris Dark  1:21:09

then you come back down on you? Well, you can’t do that because you have optimal momentum. Right. So if you go up your bookings, it doesn’t quite work like that. You have to move against Yeah.


Jeff Malec  1:21:19

You blew my blew my billion dollar idea. So if you had an I don’t know exactly how to phrase it. So you have $1,000 to invest, and you’re not you you’re just some guy on the street? $1,000 to invest? Where were you doing with it?


Chris Dark  1:21:37

Am I? It depends on how old I am. If I’m a 22 year old person, not married, no kids. And then. And if I can only invested in one thing. I’d probably say Aetherium. And just think there’ll be more volatility on that Bitcoin?


Jeff Malec  1:21:58

I got four days. Alright. 1000s a theorem 100,000?


Chris Dark  1:22:02

than if, again, if it’s a 22 year old person, then I’ll say Bitcoin? Oh, you’re all switching? Totally, because you’ve got more capital. So you don’t need the volatility so much. Right? Okay.


Jeff Malec  1:22:14

And then a million, a million would still be Bitcoin. That’s it not that you’re gonna start?


Chris Dark  1:22:22

One thing? No, if I put it in, well, then I would go again, I’m not not trying to say whole portfolio here. But like Bitcoin, and then maybe half Bitcoin and half in, you know, basically, just technology in general, like, a combo of large and smaller. For all the reasons we’ve talked about technology will drive the world forwards. And yeah, it’s not gonna go backwards.


Jeff Malec  1:22:47

So yeah. And then the last bucket 100 million,


Chris Dark  1:22:51

well, 100 million, then you’re getting a little different. Because you’re, you’re almost certainly going to be buying some interesting real estate for almost certainly, because you’re going to want to live in a nice place. And unfortunately, the world even familiar. And if you’re going to say put half in real estate, it’s not going to get you very much anymore. But putting 20 30 million bucks into a beautiful place, or places, you know, and then having a higher quality 100 million, you’ve got to think about how do I maximize quality of my life to get rid of stress, not lose it? Sure. But you also got to think about multi generational things with kids and their kids and education of that changes, big mindset, from million to 20 to 10s of millions would still have a whole bunch of Bitcoin. Definitely technology. And then you’re getting all the interesting strategies we talked about. And I would trust a whole bunch to external managers probably 20 30% Just have run different strategies, and would have really robust downside protections, just in case they’re generally so I love volatility type stuff, which there are plenty of good funds doing that. And, but that’s a full time thing. You got to be on top of that all the time. Because then you really started to diversify. Right? Very different answer.


Jeff Malec  1:23:59

Yeah, exactly. And how do you think about that real estate places all over the world? The risks associated with that, and like, your kids, you know, not having one culture to grow up? And


Chris Dark  1:24:13

yeah, I think just in general, real estate gets tokenized at some point, because at the end of the day, you’ve got a centralized land registry and every country that in effect says who owns what, and once they allow fractional ownership of things, a recorder of deeds? Yeah, yeah, then and that gets more digitized, then I suspect, you’ll just see, the usual thing we’ve seen, which is the stuff that’s premium is going to go up more, because people are going to want to own a part of a condo in New York or London or wherever and, and that it’s like, in some ways, the rich get richer again. Does that really, you know, it’s the same of art right? You know, you can’t own a 1,000th of the Mona Lisa, but if you could, would, those things would be valued a lot higher. Just because of the liquidity it gives, but lots of interesting things to solve on that. But, um, but yeah, I mean, I would say to people, like, you know, I think Rob house has a lot to like, you know, owning your primary property where you live makes a lot of sense. Because you got to live some weather I would have much else is a separate question. But I also have a rule never build never by less than five meters from sea level. So you’ve got to be more than that, ideally, significantly more. Because whether you believe in climate change or not, the oceans are going up. Yeah, and I don’t have property under water. It’s not cool.


Jeff Malec  1:25:42

Or even I’ve seen before there was any talk of climate change back, I grew up in Vero Beach, Florida and the house three down from us on the beach, just a couple of hurricanes and natural erosion, right.


Chris Dark  1:25:52

And that’s what a lot of people forget about wiped out, you’re being flooded. It’s not that the ocean is going above you. It’s the king tide that comes in. And yeah, I’ve seen properties all over the world beautiful properties that just wouldn’t sell for this reason. And having said that, I don’t think it’s a mega issue and say, Miami in terms of the real estate market, and I’ve asked people there about it. And but it’s interesting if that changes. So there’s a great big 10 meters above sea


Jeff Malec  1:26:16

level be probably so good. There’s a great Atlantic article about this guy went undercover as a condo buyer in Miami. Basically, he would ask every one of like, what about climate change and the water level rise? And the answers he got were like, from just the ludicrous to the somewhat honest to the I’ll try and dig that out. And


Chris Dark  1:26:35

it’s funny. I’ve interesting.


Jeff Malec  1:26:39

Awesome. Well, Chris, it’s been fun. I think we covered a lot. Um, any last thoughts want to leave the listeners? You’re not You’re not doing the pod anymore. So that’s not where they can find you.


Chris Dark  1:26:50

I just I mean, I So Twitter handle, I tweet at darky999 dir, Ky 909. That was my nickname when I was a kid. It’s kind of Slim, semi embarrassing. Now political correctness. And literally, I’ve been called that since I was like, four.


Jeff Malec  1:27:07

And what is your name? It’s not some


Chris Dark  1:27:09

it is my name. So it’s not? And yeah, so I just think in general, like, for listeners, just, you know, the world whilst I think as I’ve got older, you know, experience is a wonderful thing. But always be challenging yourself and be curious about new stuff. And, you know, I used to dismiss things quickly as a venture capitalist. And then I realized, you know, I shouldn’t and actually a lot of the time I’d misunderstood something and I missed things because of that.


Jeff Malec  1:27:39

And which I was gonna ask you before, did you write you know, a lot you know a lot about a lot of different topics is that you taught yourself on it. Have you always been like that as a kid? Did you know a lot about everything?


Chris Dark  1:27:51

Yeah, I was that kid. Yeah. I mean, I would read encyclopedias back then, which is what you had and then when Encarta came in, 1985 I think it wasn’t on a CD. I was like, wow, so there’s no legend, you know, and like, and I loved the internet when it first came. And at first it was only very good for like, tech strikes so slow. Yeah. But I’m just I just believe in this world, it’s, it’s great to have there’s nothing wrong with domain expertise and being an expert. I really believe in experts. But and I think everyone’s probably going to get deeper on one or two things. But actually just being curious about what’s going on where innovation or capitals moving and not dismissing things I think is a huge skill. I still buy and sell boring ETFs and boring stuff too. But I don’t find that that interesting. It’s more likely if I think inflation is going to trend for a few years. I’m going to be long energy it’s like not very complex, right? But um, but I’m not super curious in that area because I don’t think it’s that you know, this is in terms of like traditional and gas stuff but you know, when it comes to next generation stuff then just dive in and and I just think Twitter’s your best friend for this. This so many good people that put out stuff for free. But again, be aware of the snake oil, so but I you know,


Jeff Malec  1:29:16

beware the snake oil ended there. I gotta ask you, which we ask all our guests. We’re old time say favorite Star Wars character. Oh, well,


Chris Dark  1:29:24

I mean I think it’s gonna have to be Yoda. So yeah, I can’t say Luci


Jeff Malec  1:29:33

boring it’s my air this my air pod case little Yoda. I mean


Chris Dark  1:29:37

to beat you know, Darth Vader’s pretty cool. I Yeah.


Jeff Malec  1:29:41

Yeah. Hello. Alright, thanks again, Chris. We’ll talk to you soon. Thanks. Enjoy your day there and beautiful country.

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